DEEP DIVE: Fermenting Beauty: Unlocking the Power of Biofermentation in Skincare with Gay Timmons

[Intro] Hey, everyone. Welcome to Facially Conscious. I'm Trina Renea, a medically-trained Master Esthetician here in Los Angeles, and I'm sitting with my rockstar co-host, Dr. Vicki Rapaport, a board-certified dermatologist with practices in Beverly Hills and Culver City, Rebecca Gadberry, our resident skincare scientist and regulatory and marketing expert, and Julie Falls, our educated consumer who is here to represent you. 

We are here to help you navigate the sometimes confusing and competitive world of skincare. Our mission is to provide you with insider knowledge on everything from product ingredients to medical procedures, lasers, fillers, and ever-changing trends.

With our expert interviews with chemists, doctors, laser reps and estheticians, you'll be equipped to make informative decisions before investing in potentially expensive treatments. 

It's the Wild West out there, so let's make it easier for you one episode at a time. 

Are you ready to discover the latest and greatest skincare secrets? Tune in and let us be your go-to girls for all things facially conscious. Let's dive in.

01:31 Rebecca Gadberry: Hello, everybody. This is Rebecca Gadberry, your resident cosmetic chemist and marketing person, regulatory person and all things behind the scenes in our industry. I am here with our founder, Trina Renea. 

01:48 Trina Renea: Hi.

01:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Our lovely esthetician who turns out gorgeous skin for everybody that she meets, or goes to her, not that you meet. There are people you meet that should be going to you.

01:57 Trina Renea: But they don't live here. 

01:58 Rebecca Gadberry: I know.

01:59 Trina Renea: But it's okay. I give them advice over the phone. 

02:01 Rebecca Gadberry: You do. Do you do phone consultations?

02:04 Trina Renea: I do.

02:06 Rebecca Gadberry: Are they over Zoom?

02:07 Trina Renea: Yeah. Sometimes, they're over the phone, but if I feel like I need to see their face, we'll Zoom. It depends on what we're talking about. I talk to clients and I also talk to people who are trying to build product lines and doctors' offices that are making aesthetic departments, all that. 

02:23 Rebecca Gadberry: I know you do. She's an educator to professionals here in Southern California. 

And we are here with Gay Timmons, who is our resident organic expert, all things organic. She is the founder and president of Oh, Oh Organic. And you can learn more about her at ohohorganic.com. She also has her bio, or we have her bio on faciallyconscious.com. She has come to us today to talk about what we're calling fermenting beauty, unlocking the power of bio fermentation in skincare. 

And before you go, “Oh, gross,” because that's what I first did when I heard we're biofermenting, I mean, beer is a biofermentation process. Wine is a biofermentation or a fermentation process. 

03:12 Trina Renea: It's basically like rotting fruits. 

03:15 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, or you look at this… what is it? That tea, the kombucha tea? 

03:20 Gay Timmons: Kombucha. 

03:21 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, my goodness. That grosses me out so much. 

03:24 Trina Renea: I used to make that in my kitchen. 

03:28 Rebecca Gadberry: I can't even look at it, let alone drink it. 

But Gay is going to talk to us today about GMMs, genetically modified microorganisms that we started to talk about in her episode on GMOs that were a few weeks ago. And we're going to talk about fermentation products as well, because we're getting a number of new raw materials from fermentation. 

So we want to talk to Gay about why is there this huge onslaught, what are the benefits of it, and what is it taking the place of. That is kind of an interesting story for Gay to tell. I'm looking forward to hearing about what you have to say, my dear. And we're going to ask you.

04:10 Trina Renea: I have a quick question. Should they, if somebody is listening to this episode, would it be a good idea to listen to the GMO episode first or doesn’t matter?

04:20 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, I think they're going to stand alone, but she does kind of bring up GMMs a little bit. But if you're listening to GMMs and you go back to the GMOs, that'll help you more than needing to know about GMOs here because we're not going to really talk about GMOs.

04:35 Trina Renea: Okay. So maybe listen to both episodes. 

04:38 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes, listen to both episodes. 

04:40 Trina Renea: All right. 

04:41 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. So, let’s talk about the GMMs that you had started to talk about in that episode we were just discussing, and how they work. What does genetically modified microorganism actually mean?

05:02 Gay Timmons: Thank you so much. Glad to be back with you guys. A microorganism, let's just break down the term, is like a microbe. It's a little teeny organism that you cannot see with your eye.

A genetically modified microorganism is the organism itself is not generally modified. Actually, come to think of it. What we do now is we have found that yeast and enzymes and other small components that have been used historically for processing food and ingredients of all kinds can be genetically modified. And then you feed them some kind of carbohydrate or a yeast or even a protein-based thing, some kind of a substrate. 

And there's a chemical reaction that is biological instead of, let's say, more traditional chemistry where you take a chemical and you react it with another chemical and, say, some heat, or you put the two chemicals together and they create heat and then they make a new molecule. We are specifically focusing with these genetically modified microorganisms, ways of producing different kinds of molecules using this new tool of genetic modification.

And the substrate can all come from agriculture. That means it's renewable, which is better for all of us, and that means we're not using petrochemicals, which ultimately are going to get really expensive when we're all driving EVs. 

07:02 Rebecca Gadberry: That's right. That's part of this story that I was fascinated when Gay and I were talking about this a few months ago. That as we move towards electric vehicles and we stop using so much petroleum, it's going to affect our packaging, it's going to affect our raw materials in cosmetics, they're going to be harder to get and they're going to cost more. 

07:27 Gay Timmons: Because when you pull crude oil out of the soil, 47% of it becomes gasoline and then all of the rest is, well, there's some various things, but a lot of it are what we call petroleum derivatives. That's what we use to make a lot of these chemicals and to make plastic and to make so many parts of our society, and so many parts that we're now recognizing are problematic.

So, a shift to a green chemistry method using agriculturally-renewable raw materials to feed into some other type of reactive enzyme or yeast is going to give us a whole new set of tools. To me, that's just fascinating, and I think we're beginning to see that. 

They've used it for a long time. I remember as a kid, I'm sure you remember this, Rebecca. Do you remember when they came out with enzymatic cleaners for your laundry? 

08:32 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That wasn’t that far ago, was it?

08:35 Gay Timmons: It's the same thing. It's the exact same thing. The fermentation changes a carbohydrate, which is like sugars. There's really only three things. Remember that. Fat, protein, carbohydrate. Carbohydrate are all the sugars. Any kind of sugar, any carbohydrate eventually can break down to a sugar. 

09:01 Rebecca Gadberry: And when you say substrate, to me, that means that it's what they feed off of. It's almost like their feedstock, if you will, for these microorganisms.

09:12 Gay Timmons: Exactly. Sugar is going to be the substrate in this case. And then in the case of… there are different people who are making different things now. There's a company that makes a molecule that is similar to palm or it's part of what would be in palm oil that's made from sugar. There are people who make the squalene that we talked about from sugar. 

Now, I do have to chuckle at them because they go, “Oh, this is all from sugar,” but it's not just from sugar. It is very important that they have this genetically modified tool that they use to digest that sugar to convert it to the squalane.

10:04 Rebecca Gadberry: Now, do they convert it and then excrete it? Is that what happens? Or is it excreted outside the organism? 

10:08 Gay Timmons: - Well, I guess. I have not personally observed, but, yes, that's pretty much what happens with yeast kinds of. 

10:21 Rebecca Gadberry: The yeast acts as the factory. It converts the material that is your substrate or your feedstock. Then it excretes molecules that we've genetically modified the organism to excrete. 

10:36 Gay Timmons: Yeah, the organism is the yeast, and that's what we've genetically modified.

10:42 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. And so if we genetically modify that particular yeast to produce the squalane, we could also genetically modify it to produce something else as well.

10:56 Gay Timmons: Yes. And I think it's a little bit of a guess. And then I think they learn each time, the iteration as they go through the genetic code of the yeast, which surprisingly are quite complex. Somehow or other, I tend to think the DNA of a really simple thing is going to be really simple. It's not. 

11:22 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, no. 

11:22 Gay Timmons: Wrong. So as they change these different yeast and enzymes, they are then finding that they produce different molecules. And they can be quite pure, which is an advantage, I would say. 

And so, on one hand, I'm very excited about this technology. I think it's unfortunate that it was confused with GMOs and the soy and corn and all that stuff, because that's really about a farming method. It's a very different situation than where you have a very contained scientific facility where you're slicing and dicing yeast DNA and then producing the yeast, the new yeast grow and then you feed the yeast whatever your substrate is, and then it produces various kinds of molecules. 

What's unfortunate about the whole Amyris thing, because they did not do well as a company, they started off because they produced a synthetic version of a plant that is found in Africa that cures malaria. And so this kind of stuff could potentially be very, very important to us. But they couldn't make any money off of curing malaria, I guess. I think all of that was founded initially on a Gates Foundation deal, or at least partially. 

And I had the opportunity to actually tour that facility. It's near where I live. 

13:13 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. It's up in Emeryville. Yeah. One of my former employees works there. 

13:22 Gay Timmons: Yeah. So, it's very interesting to go through there. 

13:26 Rebecca Gadberry: And we're talking about the Amyris Corporation that also started the Biossance skincare line at Sephora that you can get. You can also get it online. And they did a lot of research into the squalane that they were making, that they were creating from a fermented sugar base, if you will. 

It's remarkable information. As a matter of fact, one of the things that they found, and I love this as far as the microbiome, is it actually helps, the squalane helps to protect the microbiome from being altered. So that's very interesting. 

14:03 Trina Renea: Is that why you would use fermented ingredients? Like why do you use them in a…

14:10 Rebecca Gadberry: You use them so that, one, you're not using petroleum-derived. Two, you don't have to harvest plants. So you don't have to go through all of the ins and outs and whims of nature of when you're going to harvest, how you're going to process, all the gasoline that it takes to take the plants from the field to the processor and all of that, and you don't have to kill animals. 

14:31 Gay Timmons: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. Because they're still making it from agricultural material.

14:35 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, that's true. That's true. 

14:38 Gay Timmons: I actually do have a little bit of a…

14:40 Rebecca Gadberry: Thing about that, yeah.

14:42 Gay Timmons: Well, a beef about it, because we live in a very complex system. Sugar, like palm trees, grow in the equatorial belt. In order to grow sugar, which is what a lot of these molecules are based on, and there's other ways to do it. They use sugar, like from Brazil, where they've flattened the rainforest. 

And yet there are other ways for us to get carbohydrates. With the warming climate, we're going to be able to get carbohydrates to grow all over the place. 

So I think that we need to look carefully at what substrates are used and how they are used and what the transportation is, because it's not a one-for-one. You're not making the yeast and then getting the product. You're still using an agriculturally-derived material to feed into that fermentation process. 

15:45 Rebecca Gadberry: But you don't need as diverse of an agricultural material or plants. 

15:49 Gay Timmons: Right, which is that's also good and bad. We need diversity. We need biodiversity. We don't want plants to die because we're clear-cutting something to plant something else.

16:00 Rebecca Gadberry: We don't need to clear-cut the plants, either, that we want to use. 

16:03 Gay Timmons: Right, so it's going to be a complicated solution, but I think we'll get there eventually. 

16:08 Rebecca Gadberry: I think also, looking into the future, a number of these fermenters, these fermenting factories which look kind of like when you go to Napa and you see all the big tanks where the wine is being made, those are the same type of tanks that we use. 

So I think a lot of these fermenters are going to start growing the feedstock closer to where they are, if they can. 

16:34 Gay Timmons: Well, the other thing a lot of them are using are various kinds of seaweed or algae which grow at incredible rates. So in terms of sustainability and in terms of the robustness of the plant to replace itself, that is probably going to be one of our strongest areas I'm going to…

17:01 Rebecca Gadberry: As the source material, yeah. And also, we don't have to kill animals, just, you know. So that's a biggie. But until we start reducing our intake of animals food-wise, we're still using, I think, one of the biggest producers of some of these materials is Hormel, isn't it? Who's the big beef processor in the Midwest. 

17:26 Gay Timmons: Pork and beef, but pork. I have a friend who works for an ad agency and the funniest line I've ever heard is, “Oh, my gosh, I have to go to another meeting and talk about bacon." 

17:38 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, darn. Oh, gosh, I have a story about that, but I'm not going to tell it. Okay?

17:44 Gay Timmons: Yeah. 

17:46 Rebecca Gadberry: So what kind of ingredients… well, first of all, there's a way to tell if an ingredient you're using or if there's an ingredient that's fermented that's in the product. Do you want to share with us how to identify it? 

17:58 Gay Timmons: I don't think there is. a way. 

18:00 Rebecca Gadberry: There's like the lactobacillus ferment…

18:04 Gay Timmons: Well, those are bacteria. Those are enzymatic names. You can just Google those and you can look them up. Those are not any kind of bacillus, of course. And anytime you see the…

Enzymes they have very… you see pepsin lacto-something is going to always indicate, like lactate indicates that they've used an enzyme to digest the lactose that people are allergic to, for example. So there are a whole series of enzymes, probably thousands of them, quite honestly, but there are a few that are very common in households and the same thing that we mentioned before, in cleaning products and in laundry products. 

But I think, like squalane, squalane comes from olives or it can come from yeast-digested sugar or it can come from sharks. Squalane actually is a hydrogenated version of squalene. Squalene is the raw oil. And one of the differences is that I don't think they have to hydrogenate the product that they were making at Amyris, which is now, I want to say, owned by Givaudan. 

19:25 Rebecca Gadberry: I think it is, yeah. Givaudan is a big action or performance ingredients supplier from France. 

19:32 Gay Timmons: Yes.

19:34 Rebecca Gadberry: They supply everybody.

19:36 Trina Renea: I have a simplest... can I ask a question about the squalane? 

19:41 Rebecca Gadberry: Hold on just a second. So when you look at the ingredient, a lot of times you'll see something-something ferment, and then you'll see the rest of the name. That's actually part of what I was getting at with the ingredient question. 

19:54 Trina Renea: Oh, okay. 

19:55 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, go ahead. 

19:56 Trina Renea: So when you see squalane on an ingredient list, first of all, if it was made from shark oil, it would say squalene, right? 

20:06 Rebecca Gadberry: No. 

20:06 Gay Timmons: No.

20:06 Trina Renea: No?

20:06 Gay Timmons: No.

20:07 Rebecca Gadberry: But it's not going to be made from shark oil. 

20:08 Gay Timmons: Squalene and squalane are two different forms. Squalene is the raw stuff they would get from the shark or the olive. Squalane has been further processed. It's hydrogenated and so it's a slightly different molecule. It's a little more stable. 

But I think the stuff that… we keep saying Amyris but we should probably say that Givaudan now sells, comes out that way from the enzyme or from the yeast. I don't think they need to hydrogenate it, but I'm not 100% on that. 

20:46 Rebecca Gadberry: So it doesn't need to be processed, but you're not going to be able to tell which one it is by looking at the label. 

20:52 Trina Renea: So if it's a squalane on there or squalene, you aren't going to know if it's coming from an olive or sugar yeast?

20:59 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. However, I can tell you from a supplier standpoint or a manufacturer standpoint, we can't get shark liver squalene anymore. It doesn't happen. 

21:11 Trina Renea: But why would you use... I mean, I would say if I was just a normal person, I'd be like, I want squalane from an olive plant. I don't want it from a sugar yeast. 

21:20 Rebecca Gadberry: That's up to you.

21:21 Trina Renea: But does it matter on the skin?

21:23 Rebecca Gadberry: A molecule is a molecule. It doesn't matter.

21:26 Trina Renea: On the skin, it's going to act the same. 

21:27 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. 

21:28 Trina Renea: Is it cheaper to get it as a sugar? 

21:30 Rebecca Gadberry: As an olive, it's cheaper than the sugar. The sugar is more expensive. 

21:33 Trina Renea: So why would they even go there?

21:36 Rebecca Gadberry: Because you don't have to process it, like Gay is saying. You don't have to use the product of an olive. it can be used for other things. It's more stable. I found it to be more stable anyway. And you can get squalane and hemi-squalane, they're two different ingredients. They both come from the sugar.

21:58 Trina Renea: And they penetrate the skin the same.

22:00 Gay Timmons: I also think they've done a little more research on it, haven't they, Rebecca? 

22:03 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Plus, they've got the data behind the microbiome. And when we put squalane into a product, we're putting it in there because of the skin's barrier, because squalane is in the barrier naturally. It's one of those natural lipids that our cells make to help make sure that our skin barrier is intact and we have great skin.

The squalane from Givaudan now, not Amyris, but Givaudan may be more expensive, but, to me, it's worth it because I have more data behind it as opposed to squalane from olives, which doesn't have the same amount of data. 

22:42 Gay Timmons: I do have to say with just squalene, the unprocessed stuff from olives, it's got a funny smell but it feels really good on your skin. 

22:50 Rebecca Gadberry: It does, but it's comedogenic. It'll block your pores. That's the problem. Squalane doesn't block the pores. Squalene does. So we've got a little bit of concern over that, but it does feel good.

23:01 Trina Renea: That's really interesting. That's good information for people to know. 

23:05 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah. So what other kind of ingredients do we find in skincare that are fermented? 

23:12 Gay Timmons: I think that one of the places I'm seeing a lot of the fermented products are in deodorants.

23:16 Rebecca Gadberry: Really? 

23:17 Gay Timmons: Yeah. The enzymatic…

23:20 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, yeah. Okay. 

23:22 Gay Timmons: Yeah, there's a bunch of them. And they don't come tripping off the tongue because I literally just saw a new one announced like two days ago that looked interesting. But I see a lot of those fermented sugar, they're all sugar fermentations, that are great deodorizers. 

23:43 Trina Renea: In more natural deodorants? 

23:44 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes. 

23:45 Gay Timmons: Yeah.

23:46 Trina Renea: Like, Native or something? That's a natural one, right? 

23:48 Rebecca Gadberry: I don't know that brand but, yeah, it might have it. 

23:53 Gay Timmons: It's in, well, I'm not going to advertise for people. It's in a lot of different natural and organic deodorants. 

24:03 Trina Renea: Okay. 

24:05 Gay Timmons: And it's very mild and it works pretty effectively, especially if you can combine it with some other things that help with odor. 

24:12 Rebecca Gadberry: That are in the natural area as well. Yeah. 

The other reason that we might use a biofermentation ingredient is we can create molecules that we don't get in nature, but they come through the fermentation process so they're basically natural. And I'm talking about things like your antioxidants, anti-inflammatory groups, that type of thing that we do find in in more skincare products. That some of these are derived from the algae fermentation that you were talking about. 

24:46 Gay Timmons: Yeah. I'm really excited about the algae technologies that I'm seeing. They're developing some really interesting waxes, different kinds of sugar molecules that are even more effective than, say, aloe vera in terms of moisture retention. 

I just read a TEWL study where they looked at the moisture loss from your skin and they tested one of these algae materials and it was beautiful. It really did a good job. We actually have clinical data on that for that particular product. 

What else are they making out of algae? There were just some other emollients that… they can get a lot of different products out of just seaweed. I think that the future for that is really interesting and potentially very beneficial.

25:51 Rebecca Gadberry: I think as a molecular source material, seaweed is as good, if not better than petroleum and you could do much more with it. 

26:01 Gay Timmons: Yeah. The other thing is there's some places in the world still where the water is very, very pure. And you can also grow it in tanks. So in places like Alaska, where you're not going to have any agriculture, you can grow algae in tanks, like gangbusters, and really utilize, create a technology, create jobs, create the sustainable system where you can produce ingredients. And these ingredients would probably work well in other things as well. 

One of the things I was interested to see is, do you know what the biggest use of hyaluronic acid is? 

26:43 Rebecca Gadberry: What? 

26:44 Gay Timmons: Pharma. 

26:45 Rebecca Gadberry: Pharma. Okay. That makes sense. 

26:49 Gay Timmons: So pharmaceutical. I mean, we need medicines and we need more sustainable medicines. I remember I had a brother who was in a facility for a long time and he would put different salves on him. They always had sodium laurel sulfate, which is not inherently bad ingredient but it's harsh. It's hard on your skin. 

26:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, there's new data that it actually dissolves proteins on the skin. 

27:15 Gay Timmons: I'm not surprised. And so to take a medical situation and to use that as your carrier was crazy making for me. And so I think that the opportunities we see for some of these other industries, the pharmaceutical industry as well as the cosmetic industry with these new ingredients, I think it's really very exciting. 

27:42 Rebecca Gadberry: And I know we were… I just asked you which ingredients could be fermented. I know hyaluronic acid is one of those. 

27:48 Gay Timmons: Yep. 

27:49 Rebecca Gadberry: We've used fermented hyaluronic acid for years at our company.

27:54 Gay Timmons: That's why I looked, I had looked that one up for some other purpose for how big the market was and I was surprised to see that it was primarily sold into the pharmaceutical industry.

28:05 Rebecca Gadberry: Now, another thing that fermentation can do is produce smaller molecules so they can penetrate more easily into the skin so we get more activity too. 

If you want to look for products that have fermented products or fermented ingredients, you can go on Google or Bing or I love ChatGPT. I've been using it for quite a while now. I love the feedback that I get from it. Just look up “skincare fermented ingredients” and you'll get lists of them. It's really easy to do. 

28:40 Trina Renea: Then you take those ingredients and you put them in Google and then it'll pull up products that have those ingredients.

28:45 Rebecca Gadberry: Right. So you just click on the shopping application in Google on that menu, and it'll give you the products that have the ingredients in them, or you can put it into Google, click shopping, go “skincare fermented ingredients” and it will give you the list right there.

28:45 Trina Renea: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Gay, for being on this episode. That was great, learning about fermentation. This is a new subject that I didn't know about, so that was fun.

29:11 Rebecca Gadberry: And it's going to be everywhere. It's huge. 

29:13 Trina Renea: I love it.

29:14 Rebecca Gadberry: It's huge. Every month we get a new fermented product coming across the transom.

29:20 Trina Renea: That's great. 

29:22 Rebecca Gadberry: Are you working with fermentation, fermented products yet, or ingredients? 

29:26 Gay Timmons: I'm working with some seaweed people. 

29:29 Rebecca Gadberry: Awesome. 

29:30 Gay Timmons: A couple of them. And so it's really interesting to see what's going on there. I'm just waiting for the day that the beer people make something since that's like the oldest fermentation that we know about, right? 

29:43 Rebecca Gadberry: Absolutely. I had a client in Boston that was doing fermentation. They were some of the very first on the market. And their first production was in a beer factory. When the beer factory was not producing, they were producing their materials. So it could be the same thing. 

30:01 Gay Timmons: A tank is a tank. That's one of the things that's really nice about it is you're not going to… in the segment where we talked about GMOs, I expressed my concern about the overuse of glyphosate-type chemicals going into the waters and whatnot, and into the soils. But with this technology, with GMMs, it's very contained. 

So I think we have a great opportunity to communicate to consumers that these are safe, that they're effective, that their ability to replace so many other, especially petroleum-derived molecules is tremendous. 

30:40 Rebecca Gadberry: They're sustainable. They're good for, they're safe for the environment. There's so many big wins on these. 

30:46 Trina Renea: Awesome. 

30:48 Rebecca Gadberry: Thank you for joining us. We always learn a lot with you. 

30:51 Trina Renea: Yes. Thank you. 

30:53 Gay Timmons: A new discussion. Thank you.

30:54 Rebecca Gadberry: Thank you.

30:55 Trina Renea: It was great to see you and hear you again. 

31:00 Gay Timmons: In my messy kitchen, but, you know.

31:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes, with your daughter behind you. 

31:06 Gay Timmons: She just got here from Brooklyn. 

31:08 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, awesome.

31:08 Trina Renea: Go enjoy your day with her. Okay. 

31:11 Gay Timmons: Thank you, ladies. 

31:11 Trina Renea: All right. Take care.

31:14 Rebecca Gadberry: Bye, Gay. 

31:14 Trina Renea: Bye.

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