6 ways to f—- up your acne program / Mark Lees

00:01 [Intro] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Facially Conscious with myself, Trina Renea, esthetician and Rebecca Gadberry, the cosmetic ingredient guru, highly-acclaimed educator and award-winning journalist. She is the cosmetic industry leader. 

We are gathered here together with you to talk about this crazy world of esthetics. It's confusing out there in this big wide world. 

That's why we are here to help explain it to you all subject by subject. We will be your go-to girls and, from our perspective without giving medical advice, we will keep things facially conscious. 

Let's get started!

01:02 Rebecca Gadberry: Hello, hello, hello. 

01:04 Trina Renea: Good morning. 

01:06 Rebecca Gadberry: It's Trina and Rebecca with Facially Conscious, back to talk to you this week with one of our favorite contributing guests. It's Dr. Mark Lees out of Pensacola, Florida. 

01:18 Trina Renea: Hello, hello, Mark.

01:20 Rebecca Gadberry: Hello, darling. 

01:21 Dr. Mark Lees: Hi, how are you guys today?

01:22 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, there's that wonderful Southern lilt, as I like to call it. We love your voice. We just love it. It's adorable.

01:30 Dr. Mark Lees: Thank you. That's sweet.

01:32 Rebecca Gadberry: And you're adorable too. 

And if you want to learn more about Dr. Mark, you can visit faciallyconscious.com and go to our About part of our website, where Dr. Mark is now listed as a contributing co-host. We just adore him. 

If you haven't heard any of the podcasts with Dr. Mark, he is so informative. Just look into season two and you'll find some podcasts, some episodes there with him.

02:01 Trina Renea: And his name's in the title, so that's how you could find him.

02:02 Rebecca Gadberry: His name's in the title. And today, we're going to do kind of a little edgy topic, and that is how to…

02:11 Trina Renea: Six ways.

02:13 Rebecca Gadberry: Six ways to F-up your acne program. Now, we're not going to go the total explaining what F is, but I think you get it. 

02:25 Trina Renea: Or mess up your acne.

02:26 Rebecca Gadberry: Mess up blunders.

02:27 Trina Renea: Six ways to mess up your acne program.

02:30 Rebecca Gadberry: I prefer F-up.

02:32 Trina Renea: I like F-up too.

02:33 Rebecca Gadberry: I do too. So, I got a cup from my son and it says…

02:40 Trina Renea: It says F-U? 

02:41 Rebecca Gadberry: No, it says— wait a second, I've got it here. While I'm looking this up, I think it's just adorable, by the way. And he should get it for all the women in his life because we're all the same. And you may want one at home too. You can get them online.

02:56 Trina Renea: What? HM? 

02:58 Rebecca Gadberry: And on it it says, “I do not spew profanities. I enunciate them clearly like a lady.”

03:10 Trina Renea: That's amazing.

03:12 Rebecca Gadberry: And Dr. Mark, we've known each other for 40 years. You know I enunciate when I spew.

03:17 Dr. Mark Lees: Yes, you do enunciate. And outside of my Southerness, I enunciate well as well. 

03:24 Trina Renea: I have a child, so I have to keep my words to a minimum.

03:29 Rebecca Gadberry: At what point in this child's age are you going to not do that? 

03:33 Trina Renea: We actually have been using the bad words, so she's kind of used to it, to be honest.

03:39 Rebecca Gadberry: There's a real world out there. 

03:41 Trina Renea: Yeah, I think I stopped caring when she was about five.

03:45 Rebecca Gadberry:  I think that's when my son came home and said, "I wanna eff those people up." 

And I went, "What? Where did you hear that?

03:55 Trina Renea:  My daughter's first word was, "Shit." 

03:57 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, really? 

03:58 Trina Renea: I wanted it to be her first word so bad that I said it a lot just so she would say it. And then she dropped something on the ground and she went, "Shit." And I was like, "Yes!" And then I told her she can't say it anymore. 

04:14 Rebecca Gadberry: We had a friend from Kentucky who, every morning, she'd set her parakeet in the cage on the kitchen table and she'd drink her coffee and she'd say, "I love you, pretty bird. I love you, pretty bird." And this went on for weeks. The bird never said anything. 

So, she finally got fed up and she said, "Shit bird." And she came back into the kitchen and the bird was saying, "Shit bird, shit bird," and it never said, "I love you." It just said, "Shit bird." She's like, "Dang it." 

And here at Facially Conscious, we want you to have a broad background.

04:49 Trina Renea: It's the culture. So we're going to teach you six ways to F-up your acne program. 

Dr. Mark Lees did a whole thing on this, right? 

05:00 Rebecca Gadberry: Right, for professional estheticians. He's written books about it. He's an acne specialist, especially with clogged pores or what we call comedogenicity. 

05:10 Trina Renea: I am as well an acne esthetician working in Dr. Vicki Rapaport's office. For all those years that I worked there, we were more of a medical doctor's office. And so I did acne all day long, 10 patients a day.

05:25 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, this is really big in medical and also clinical esthetics, not so much buzz but clinical esthetics.

So, I'm going to listen and I'm going to let you and Mark talk about from a professional background how people F-up their acne routines.

05:42 Trina Renea: And if you have any questions, you’re welcome to pop in.

05:44 Rebecca Gadberry: I will. And if you at home have any questions, you’re welcome to ask them on the faciallyconscious.com website. You can also…

05:55 Trina Renea: How do they ask a question on there? 

05:59 Rebecca Gadberry: Under comments. They just click on comments. 

06:00 Trina Renea: There's a comment page they can make any comment? Oh, excellent. 

06:03 Rebecca Gadberry: You can make a comment and ask a question. 

06:04 Trina Renea: You can also ask us on Instagram as well in the comments there. You can reach us there too. 

06:12 Rebecca Gadberry: Which can be found in Facially Conscious or Facebook. 

06:15 Trina Renea: Yeah, or info@faciallyconscious.com. There's so many ways to talk to us, so reach out.

06:20 Rebecca Gadberry: I know. We're very approachable and reachable, accessible.

06:24 Trina Renea:  And Mark, are you approachable and reachable if someone has questions for you?

06:27 Dr. Mark Lees:  Yes, absolutely. Facebook and Instagram both. Instagram is @markleesskincare. Also, Dr. Mark Lees on Facebook and the same thing for Instagram. 

06:40 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. And we'll post those as well.

06:41 Dr. Mark Lees: And Mark Lees Skin Care is Dr. Mark Lees, right.

06:43 Rebecca Gadberry:  I think that information is actually under his About Bio on our website. So, let's get to it. 

We've really become very accessible. We want to hear from you. And you can also find Facially Conscious on Facebook as well and join in. 

So, let's do the first one. I'll pose the F-ups and you guys can take it from there. 

One way to F-up your acne program, and this is one of the biggest ways, is treating only what you can see. Treating only what you can see. Why is that an F-up? 

07:19 Trina Renea: Mark, you want to start? 

07:21 Dr. Mark Lees: Well, when someone has acne, there's so much going on underneath the skin in terms of microcomedone development and things like that. So, I tell my clients that whenever you see a clogged pore or an acne blemish on your face, there's several hundred other ones underneath the skin waiting to come out. 

If you don't treat the skin around your lesions and, basically, your whole face with the exception of your eyes, you are not flushing all the microcomedones out. The way to get ahead of acne and to get clear is to flush all of the microcomedones out, and keep flushing them because they reoccur.

Basically, you have to use whatever your chem exfoliant is, be it benzoyl peroxide, alpha-hydroxy, Retin-A, tretinoin, Tazorac, whatever you’re re using, either medical or esthetic.

My favorites are BPO and I do a low-dose BPO, which is like a 2.5% gel. I also like using, I have a product that we do that has a mixture of alpha and beta-hydroxy acids. It's a gel. I like using them together because I think they do a really good job flushing follicles.

But I tell the clients, “When you apply either your benzoyl peroxide or your alpha-beta gel…

08:55 Trina Renea: When he's talking about alpha-beta, he means glycolic acid or lactic acid or those types of things. And then beta, he's referring to salicylic acid. 

09:09 Rebecca Gadberry: Not the store chain, Alpha Beta. 

09:09 Dr. Mark Lees: Right. But what you want to do is apply the gel or whatever it is to all areas of the face, a light layer. It should absorb very quickly. If you apply it like paste, you're going to be red as a beet. So you just apply a few dots. 

I do kind of a genuflect on the face and then massage that into every area except right around, you don't want to get into the orbicularis, which is the area right around the eyes. You let that set for a minute and then you can come back and spot treat. 

So if you can still spot treat with benzoyl peroxide, or you could use a drying clay or something like that on the individual spots, but if you just treat the spots, you're only going to fix the spots and somebody next door is going to pop out in a week or two. 

So the best way you would want to clear…

10:02 Rebecca Gadberry: And we don’t need a ____ 

10:04 Dr. Mark Lees: Right. If you really want to get a face that's clear, you have to use it all over. 

10:13 Trina Renea: And also, when you're dealing with acne, it's about clearing up the acne. So just treating what you see on your face right then doesn't mean that something else, like he said, is not going to come up. So you get to the root of why you're getting acne and then you use the products that are going to help clear your skin overall through time. It's not something you can just stop or just use when you get a pimple. 

10:39 Dr. Mark Lees: Yeah, acne is not curable and people forget that. We can get it to the point where it seems like it's cured, but you have to keep treating it. 

I tell my clients all the time, like compare programs to going to the gym. If you want the body you want, you know to go to the gym, you have to be consistent. And then once you get the body, you have to keep going to the gym, because if you don't keep going to the gym, you'll go back to your old body. That's true for aging and it's true for acne, any sort of skin treatment. 

11:13 Trina Renea: Yeah. And acne also comes in different forms. It can be caused by teenage years, hormonal. There's hormonal as a female. There's food-related acne. There's things that you're allergic to.

11:27 Rebecca Gadberry: Stress-related, which is hormonal. 

11:31 Trina Renea: Right. So there's a lot of different acne. Sometimes you can treat it on your own and with products and estheticians, and sometimes it has to go to a doctor's office. You could always start with an esthetician.

But our second way to F-up your acne program is using poor, clogging products. How are you ever going to know what a poor, clogging product is or if that's causing your acne? Mark, do you have a comment on that?

12:00 Dr. Mark Lees: The classic answer is to go to somebody who understands comedogenicity and have them look at your products and your labels to see whether or not they are clogged.

There are some websites, various. If you Google ‘comedogenicity’ you will see that there are a number of sites that have charts of ingredients. You can check these charts against what's in your products, particularly things that are at the top of the list. 

So if you see an ingredient at the top of the list, you find one as ranked as highly comedogenic on one of these charts, you can pretty much be assured that that's probably going to be a problem. And try to avoid those top lists. The lists are the easiest way to do it. 

But, basically, what you need to know is comedogenic ingredients are almost all fats, waxes, oils, and fatty esters. They are the base of the product and what we call the vehicle of the product. In other words, we have an expression around our office. I'll say, “What's it floating in?” Meaning what is the active principle or the performance ingredient or the active ingredient, in some cases? What is that floating in, because that's what spreads across the skin. Almost every comedogenic ingredient is a spreading type agent. That's what you have to be really careful with. 

The best things are the lightweight. Check the label to see if it's been tested for comedogenicity or if it's been thoroughly dermatology tested. It's a good idea to go to a company that makes a lot of acne-related products. 

13:54 Rebecca Gadberry: And also does testing for comedogenicity.

13:56 Dr. Mark Lees: And does testing either for that or at least trial testing, because most people are not doing the standard comedogenic testing anymore because the original comedogenic testing was done on rabbits. Most people are trying to avoid animal testing now.

So they clinically test it on acne prone-patients, and there's several different types of tests that you can do, but just research it. Make sure it's at least dermatologist-tested and you can ask, if you're talking to an esthetician, hopefully they know how their products have been tested properly. But there are tests that we can do without using animals now.

Also, there is actually a computer formula testing now that matches certain sequences of molecule structure. I can't remember the name of the site off the top of my head, but there is a site that's pretty involved, but it talks about, and you can kind of type in the thing and then they'll give you a breakdown based on how the molecules work together. 

But, still, going back to what I originally said, most of them are fats, fatty esters, waxes and oils. So you have to be very careful with that. 

15:23 Rebecca Gadberry: We also have posted in our blog from 2022 an article that I wrote about comedogenicity. It's got a list of comedogenic ingredients and the different ratings that they have and how to tell if an ingredient or if a product will be comedogenic just by looking at the ingredient list.

Let's put something in the Instagram this week about this formula testing. They actually will take the molecular structure of the product and then put it into a comparison analysis of chemicals that they know to be poor clogging. That's how they could do it without testing on animals or humans.

16:05 Trina Renea: Okay, Taylor, can you write that down for this episode? 

16:11 Rebecca Gadberry: So the next one, and I'm one of these people, afraid of benzoyl peroxide. 

16:14 Trina Renea: Oh, don't be afraid. 

16:16 Rebecca Gadberry: I'm afraid. 

16:16 Trina Renea: I have a lot of things to say. 

16:18 Dr. Mark Lees: Right. Go ahead, Trina. You go first.

16:21 Rebecca Gadberry:  What a gentleman. 

16:23 Trina Renea: Thank you. So, benzoyl peroxide is drying on the surface of the skin. It works to get oxygen under the skin and kill the P bacteria in acne. But a little trick that we would use at the dermatologist's office is that we would have people put their moisturizer on first and then put their benzoyl over it. Dr. Vicki would say that the moisturizer would act like a little bit of a barrier on the surface and the benzoyl peroxide would still penetrate. I find that that's a little trick when you're using benzoyl peroxide. 

People who use benzoyl peroxide every day find that it's super drying and so they stop using it. I tell people, instead of stopping it, to use it less often, if they have to, in order to keep using it. If they start getting so dry that they don't want to use it, give it a couple days break and then use it every other day. That's how I kind of trick their skin. 

17:26 Rebecca Gadberry: That's how Dr. ____ who started that protocol suggested using it as well. 

17:34 Dr. Mark Lees: What I do is I have them alternate nightly. One night they use benzoyl peroxide all over, the next night they use a non-comedogenic hydrator all over. And they go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth hydrating one night, using the benzoyl the next night. 

And then during the day, I have them use the alpha-beta complex. So they're getting a second light exfoliation, but alpha-beta does not cause the potential type of irritation that benzoyl peroxide can have.

18:07 Rebecca Gadberry: Depending on what company you use. That is interesting. 

18:11 Dr. Mark Lees: And depending on the— yes, that's true, and the pH of the product. 

18:14 Rebecca Gadberry: Exactly. 

18:16 Dr. Mark Lees: Assuming that they have a pH above 3.5, which is going to be a whole nother lecture.

18:21 Rebecca Gadberry: Yeah, that's another issue. 

18:24 Dr. Mark Lees: But assuming that they have a pH that is not crazily low. And then the same thing with the benzoyl peroxide. The benzoyl peroxide, I always start people— I don't know what you do, Trina. I always start people on 2.5. Then if we need to go to five, we go to five, because there's statistics now from Stanford, actually. They did a study a few years ago that shows that the 2.5 is just as effective as far as killing bacteria but it produces so much less irritation than, say, a 10%. So don't go for the big guns. 

And I think estheticians do this a lot. I used to have one for me and I used to slather down all the time, because she would always just put— everything was in high gear. You don't always need to be in high gear. High gear is the thing that can cause inflammation from treatment.

19:17 Trina Renea: Which goes into our next way to mess up your face, thinking you can care for your skin on your own. When you're dealing with acne, I think you should be under an esthetician, an acne esthetician or a dermatologist. 

So if you're going to see an esthetician, don't go to the spa if you have acne. Go to an esthetician who specializes in acne. It's all over their profile or wherever you're finding out information about them or referred to from a dermatologist, because a dermatologist will treat the acne with topical medication, sometimes with antibiotics and sometimes with Accutane, where an esthetician will take care of your acne by cleaning it out and getting you on the right products and making sure you're using the right things. 

When you have acne, I would definitely not just buy over-the-counter acne products, unless you don't have access to an esthetician or a dermatologist, but I would say try to find a good acne esthetician that can guide you on products and keep your pores clear so that you can get those products into your skin and start working underneath the skin, like Mark was saying in the beginning about working on all those microcomedones underneath as well. 

20:35 Rebecca Gadberry: And there's two questions that come up in my mind. How do you know it's acne? Because one zit does not make acne, and does not acne make, to quote Shakespeare or re-quote him. 

The other one is aren't there different grades of acne? And certain grades you need help and certain grades you definitely…

20:53 Trina Renea: Yes, there's lots of. There's blackheads, which we call comedones, there's microcomedones, there's pustules and papules and cysts and milia. It's usually multiple types of acne that cause you to be like an acne client or to have acne. 

If you just have blackheads, that's not really acne, although it can turn into it if they get too clogged up and they're trying to push their way out. That's a good time to use your alpha-hydroxy acids and salicylic acids and things.

21:27 Rebecca Gadberry: It might behoove us to do an episode on what grade of acne is it. 

21:33 Dr. Mark Lees: That would be a great idea. 

21:35 Rebecca Gadberry: I'd love to have Dr. Vicki as part of that too. 

21:37 Dr. Mark Lees: Absolutely, because they're definitely…

21:39 Rebecca Gadberry: Lots of it.

21:40 Dr. Mark Lees: Yeah. That's where everybody, the whole team's on board. 

21:43 Trina Renea: Yes, I teach that to estheticians. I do an extraction class where I teach them all the different kinds of acne, which ones you can extract, which ones you can't, as an esthetician. Then, of course, there's training your clients not to pick them.

But, yeah, we can definitely do that. 

So number five, we have failure to be consistent with your skincare routine. That is a good way to mess up your acne program.

22:12 Rebecca Gadberry: AKA compliance. 

22:13 Dr. Mark Lees: I think that the number one thing, if we're ranking all of this, I would say that the number one ranking would be non-compliance as far as taking care of the skin at home. If you don't do your routine at home, and this is particularly true for teenagers, if you don't do your routine at home, you can't expect it to get better.

Rebecca and I have a good friend, Sophia, who is Venezuelan, who has a beautiful Venezuelan accent. And she is famous for saying, "I'm sure your bathroom drawer has very pretty skin." That's where the products are. 

22:57 Rebecca Gadberry: Yes.

23:00 Dr. Mark Lees: But failure to do it, there's nothing that— I used to go to a dentist who had a sign in his office, and I stole the idea. I kind of bastardized and changed the words around. But it said, “There's nothing the dentist can do that will overcome what the client will not do.”

23:17 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, wow. I like that. 

23:19 Dr. Mark Lees: I think you can say the same thing for estheticians, that there's nothing that the esthetician can do that will overcome what the client will not do.

23:29 Trina Renea: I always tell the clients, “If you follow what I'm telling you to do at home and you use these products the way I'm telling you to use them, we're going to clear up your acne, but you're a big part of this. And if you don't follow it, it's not going to help you. You're going to end up at the dermatologist's office.”

So they have to be consistent. It's like people who have to be on medication and then they're like, “I feel fine so I'm not going to take my medication,” and then it'll come back. 

23:58 Dr. Mark Lees: Especially psychological drugs.

24:00 Trina Renea: Exactly. 

24:01 Dr. Mark Lees: And, seriously, that's a really big problem. I'm giggling, but that's a problem. 

24:05 Trina Renea: It is. And so people think if they don't have any acne on their face, then they don't have to use their products. But the reason they don't have acne on their face is because they've been using their products. So don't be inconsistent.

24:16 Dr. Mark Lees:  And then you're basically going to have to start over because everything's all clogged up again. 

24:21 Trina Renea: Right. And your esthetician will guide you. So if you don't need a product anymore, your esthetician will switch you to a different product. 

24:27 Rebecca Gadberry: They will make the decision. 

24:28 Trina Renea: And maybe lower the— if you were at a 5% benzoyl peroxide, they may drop you to a 2.5%. Then they may drop that product completely at some point and just have you on AHAs or whatever. 

So you let the esthetician decide what. That's why you keep coming back to the esthetician so they can analyze your skin, look at your skin, treat your skin and then say, “Okay, you're doing great. Now we can do this.”

24:55 Rebecca Gadberry: They're your partner.

24:57 Trina Renea: Yeah. They're your concierge. 

24:58 Rebecca Gadberry: Your concierge. I like to think of it as you own my skin and I just take care of it when I'm not with you.

25:06 Dr. Mark Lees:  Or a life coach. 

25:07 Rebecca Gadberry: That's our friend David in Indianapolis…

25:10 Dr. Mark Lees: A life coach for your skin. 

25:11 Rebecca Gadberry: A life coach. Our friend David in Indianapolis used to stand at the front of the facial room after he'd done the intake evaluation or interview. And he'd say, “Okay, we can only go in here together if you acknowledge that your skin is mine and you take care of my skin when you're not with me.

25:36 Trina Renea: That puts them in a position to know that you're watching them.

25:39 Rebecca Gadberry: That's a clinical esthetician for you. 

So the last one?

25:44 Trina Renea: Yeah, failure to plan for the long term, which is what we've been talking about, is that you stay with your esthetician. You have them help you through the long term so that you can keep the acne away. 

And if you just go to an esthetician or a dermatologist to fix it immediately and then you just don't go back, then you're going to end up back with acne. So you have to do a long term. It just has to happen. 

26:10 Rebecca Gadberry: Impulse buying is not your friend if you have acne. 

26:13 Dr. Mark Lees: No, it isn't. And particularly if you decide, even if you're on a good acne routine at home and you're going to an esthetician and getting proper advice, if you go to one of these cosmetic stores and you start experimenting with all the makeups that are out there, a lot of them are comedogenic. 

And some of them haven't been properly tested so you might get an acnegenic reaction, which is like an overnight zit flare. Or you might eventually get comedones from them.

I worked with a model from Los Angeles. Beautiful, beautiful girl. I was working with her long distance, because she'd heard about me. So we had started working with her on what was the problem with her acne. 

She was going to a dermatologist out there and I completely approved of what the dermatologist was doing. She told me what the dermatologist was doing and all very logical, but she was still just a big clogged-up mess.

So I asked her to please send me the list, could she go and scan the list of the ingredients of the makeup she was wearing and things like that. Well, boy, didn't I know what I wasn't getting into, because I got pages and pages and pages of lists, because she would just buy anything to try. And very trendy and very young and she was absolutely a stunningly beautiful woman, but she was messing up her face with all this stuff she was using.

I said, “Stay with what the dermatologist told you to do and let's talk about a very limited amount of makeup products, particularly foundation powder and blush, because those are on central areas of your face for a long period of time. Let's do that. And you cannot get off the straight and narrow with your non-comedogenic makeup plan. You can't go out and play with every blush contour or whatever, whatever that comes around. You have to stick with your plan. 

Now, you can play with lipstick. We can play with an eyeshadow, or something like that. That's fine, because we're not generally getting acne in those areas. But the base powder and blush has to be something that's not going to clog.”

28:37 Rebecca Gadberry:  Right. Well, those are all really good to know, even if you don't have acne. You may know somebody who does. 

So Dr. Mark, as always, extremely fascinating and a lot of fun to talk with you.

28:51 Dr. Mark Lees:  Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And it's always a pleasure being here. 

I want to add one thing, Rebecca. We were just talking about comedogenic lists and things like that. In my Clearing Concepts book, which they can get on Amazon if they're really interested.

29:07 Rebecca Gadberry: Oh, is that the one you wrote on acne? 

29:10 Dr. Mark Lees: A whole chapter on just comedogenicity in that book. 

29:12 Rebecca Gadberry: Excellent.

29:14 Dr. Mark Lees:  If the esthetician wants more information, the Skincare Beyond the Basics book has even more information, which is the big textbook. But most consumers will not want to spend that kind of money on a book for consumers, but the estheticians probably would because there's a lot of other stuff in there that they'd be interested in as well. 

29:36 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay, excellent. 

29:36 Dr. Mark Lees: Go and get it from me or get it from Amazon, either one.

29:39 Rebecca Gadberry: Okay. Wonderful. Really good to know, because we love to let our listeners know how to go beyond just what they're listening to on the podcast. This is really good take-home information, good homework for some of us too, so that we can speak knowledgeably with our friends and with any professional that we work with as well.

30:01 Trina Renea:  Yep.

30:03 Rebecca Gadberry: Well, have a wonderful rest of your day and week. 

30:04 Trina Renea: Yes, thank you so much for being with us and doing these little chats with us. We really appreciate it and love it.

30:13 Dr. Mark Lees:  Thank you very much for having me again and I look forward to come visit it again.

30:17 Rebecca Gadberry:  All right. You take care of Halo. We love our little puppy.

30:23 Dr. Mark Lees:  She's been very good. She may still be asleep, I don't know. 

30:28 Rebecca Gadberry: A little lay-about puppy. Okay. Bye, everybody. 

30:32 Trina Renea: Bye.

30:32 Dr. Mark Lees: Bye-bye.

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